Marcel Stewart is joined by SGS and Owais Lightwala to discuss why being an artist matters, the Massey Commission, capitalism and neo-liberalism, artists as activists, innovation vs conservation, and their Manifesto for NOW. They both raise thought-provoking questions like: are money markets really at fault for artists not being able to make art? What does it mean to produce art today and how are we thinking about that as a sector? We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as Marcel did.
Marcel Stewart
Coming up a conversation with Owais Lightwala and SGS. Whoooo, these two get into it. Capitalism and neoliberalism. What does it mean to produce art today? Artists as activists. Innovation versus conservation. The trust crisis, and we even have time to get into their manifesto for now. Next.
SGS
Well, I was gonna say, I’ve got like a totally good jumping off point whenever we jump, but maybe you need to do some intros Marcel.
Marcel
No, like to start off, I just want to give you both a moment to introduce yourselves. So if you want to jump off on that, you’re welcome to and then take it from there.
SGS
Sure, I’ll jump in. My name is Sarah Garton, Stanley. I go by SGS or Sarah. And I really like it. I switched to SGS probably about a year ago, in response to the many fabulous Sarahs in the world. And just needing a way to express my inbetweeness, I think in a lot of ways and how I feel within the world. So it gives people pause in an interesting way. It’s always been a nickname throughout my life anyway. And I’m the newly appointed Vice President of Programming for Arts Commons in Calgary. And I moved to Calgary about a month ago, a little over a month ago. And I really love it. And I’m in the process of getting the final pieces of my PhD of Research Creation in. It goes in on Halloween to hopefully defend in December. So that’s looking at the the Massey Commission, and the impacts that it still is having and has had on the cultural landscape within this dynamic place we call Canada and/or Turtle Island, the Northern Part. That’s me.
Owais
Okay, already getting the imposter syndrome. My name is Owais. I am an assistant professor in performance at the Creative School at Toronto Metropolitan University in Toronto. Not long before I started at the university, I used to be the Managing Director of Why Not Theatre for what feels like an eternity. And had a role in kind of starting that company with Ravi Jain in the early days when it was just him by himself, and building it up into the media institution that it’s become today. And some other fun things I’m working on these days as I have founded a tech company to help artists manage money called Sai, which has been a really interesting adventure in a completely different domain from everything that I was doing in the arts, but very much related to the art sector in terms of trying to use technology to solve problems that creative people face. And by the time this goes out, it will also be public that I’ve been appointed the Director of the Chrysalis at TMU, which is a new innovation incubator for live performance and events at TMU. So that is a new venture that I’m also embarking on to try and figure out what the future performance will look like. And actually make some space for that, in physical space. So yeah, that’s my foray into this gumbo.
SGS
That is so great, Owais. I didn’t know that. Owais and I talk pretty much every week a couple of times. So Spiderwebshow, you just got that news first. Yeah, that’s awesome. Congratulations. Yeah.
Owais
Thank you.
Marcel
Amazing. Yeah, I echo what SGS said. And I would like to just start by asking, What are you thinking about these days?
Owais
You had something already lined up…
SGS
I’m actually gonna say that just because it’s sort of about the work you and I are doing together. But I think what I’m thinking about most is the impossibility of existing in wellness in the world at this moment. And how we strive for it. I’m generalizing with the [inaudible]. How I strive for it, how I value it. How there’s so many things in my life that are so extraordinary and amazing, and yet to be able to fulfill all of the things that I feel I’ve been given this opportunity to live a life to do, I don’t know how to do it. And that’s what I’ve been thinking a lot about lately.
Owais
I have been thinking a lot about, lately it feels to me like we are on the precipice of world war three. And basically, we’re one Taiwan away from just calling it a World War at this point. Because there’s something that feels like has been historically overturned in terms of the post-World War Two movement that was being made towards greater and greater ability, and less and less shifting of borders, and less and less shifting of nations becoming something that I think, at least I had taken for granted as something that was now settled. The kind of pre-World War Two world was one of constantly shifting borders historically, and feels like we are maybe now post-pandemic–maybe because of the pandemic–hard to separate those things, seeing again, the possibility of within my lifetime, national lines being redrawn in a way that will be very, very, very bloody, Unfortunately, and very, very, very costly for humanity. And against that backdrop, what is what is it that we’re doing? Why make art? How to make it? What is the point of all that, is always the thing that I keep going back to? Like, what is this thing we’re doing? In the face of that insanity that we’re about to enter into as a human species?
SGS
Or that we’re in already. You know, I was at this really interesting conversation last week. And, you know, one of the the speakers said, like, you know, we keep referring to the housing crisis. Owais, you and I’ve talked about these other crises, and they’re like, you don’t get a vacation from the world. And that’s really resonated with me. It’s like, the world is constantly in crisis. And it’s sped up through communication, the sort of the globalization of thinking and the speed at which we can feel like we’re being connected to one another. And so yeah, like, the sense of, all you can do is choose to get up for a period of time, but like there’s no break just keeps happening.
Marcel
I had a question that I was gonna save for later, but feels right, right about now. Last week, I went and spoke to a class at Humber College, soon to be graduates, and talked a lot about the industry and my experience, and then offered up space to hear them talk about where they’re at. And there’s a lot of doom and gloom in the room. About what’s out there? And the question came up, like, why being artists today? With like, the crises that you’re speaking of, the inexorable thing that’s waiting, you know, however you want to label it. So I’m interested if either of you have thoughts on like, why being artists today?
SGS
Yeah, I’ve got like a really quick answer. I think there’s every reason, every reason for the good of our families or children or animals the planet for for people to want to be an artist. How they can communicate their artistry, I think is up for, in my mind, huge review. So like, art is so limited, but when I think about placemaking, when I think about incredible speakers, when I think about the interconnectedness of food and light. You know, like, I think that we’ve limited our-systemically we’ve limited, I don’t think all individuals have limited–but in the way we teach it, the way we talk about, it the way we think about it, the way the Canada Council represents it, that it’s not it’s not the urge to be an artist in my view, that’s problematic. You know, Owais made a crack about me being an artist at the beginning. I mean, Owais is an artist, all three of us are artists here. Like that is clear to me. You know something times I wish it weren’t the case, but it’s true. But that’s also an exciting part of why we’re able to see things or motivate things or move things that others don’t necessarily have the wherewithal, or the heart space or the… I’m not sure. But I think there’s every reason right now to be an artist.
Owais
I feel like I have a couple of different ways to respond to that. And depending on the day of the week, or who I’m talking to, I go in a different direction. But like, when I hear that, I hear that from my students too. There’s a lot of pessimism in young people I see around the state of the world that they’re entering in. And I have find it hard to relate to because I don’t remember being pessimistic at 18. Because I didn’t know anything at all, frankly, like I was just so ignorant, blissfully so, about the world. I got gradually–like, for me University was the place where I learned how messed up the world was. And then gradually became kind of more and more cynical and jaded towards the end of that journey. But I came in with a lot of like naivete and openness. And I am grateful for that, in retrospect, because it allowed me to at least entertain the possibility that something could be done, that something was possible. I didn’t come into it, with a very firm conviction that I hear often, from people that like, there’s nothing left to be done, there’s nothing left to be said. So when I’m faced with my students, I better remind them that like, pessimism is still a choice to some extent, I think. And there’s this great quote that pessimists are disappointed twice, and an optimist is disappointed once. Like you can choose to be cynical now. And then later on, also be disappointed, because the thing that you’re cynical that became true, or you can choose to believe that something better is possible and try for it, or maybe it won’t work, I don’t know. I can’t pretend that we will fix all the things we are struggling with, or the infinite cycles of crises, as SGS has pointed out, I don’t know. But I find that for me at least personally, I get no energy from sitting in that headspace. It gives me nothing. I have nothing left to contribute when I go down that hole. So the only place that I can work from is a place of possibility and a place of imagination and a place of curiosity. So I deliberately kind of direct my attention in that direction. The other couple of things that come to mind when you ask what is the point of being an artist is, I think it was Churchill quote of like, Why did we fight these wars if not to make art? Like is that why we are fighting? To work for humanity so that we can do this? So we can practice? And then last thought I’ll share is I’m also not sentimental about the artists as a profession. I think that installation of like art making versus artists as a person who makes a living wage, by calling themselves a professional artists is something that I don’t know is necessarily a helpful thing to conflate. Because there are a lot of people making what I would call art, in the world right now. And whether or not they identify as such, doesn’t make any difference. Right, a rose by any other name… we could do this all day in terms of quotations, but what is the actual impetus? And for me, the impetus is that deeply human need to create, that deeply human need to express, that deeply human need to imagine. I don’t think it’s even a question really. Like should I or shouldn’t I We’re going to, we’re going to whether or not anybody gives us permission. Whether or not you want to make that your job is a choice. Whether or not that’s going to be something you’re going to get enough funding for, to make a living out of is a choice. A state choice, of personal choice, a whole bunch of things are implicated. But the human need to be artistic, to be creative, I don’t think is up for debate. Any more than our need to exist, our need to survive, our need to be social and in relationship with each other. Like those are not things we can choose, unchoose. I don’t think.
SGS
Yeah, and just to sort of jump in on the ideological front, like one of the things that was said to me not that long ago in terms of my work on the Massey Commission was, this person said, “you know, like, I think that the Massey Report was the single most successful thing for separating the arts from people.” So you think about that, and you know, like the Massey Commission is credited with the Canada Council for the Arts. It’s credited with the professionalization of Canada. It’s not necessarily all at the heels of, or at the feet of, the Massey Commission. But at the same time, that quote has really stuck with me because it’s true. When people say to me, “you know, I’m not really an artist,” and then I see these incredible things that they do. And I’m like, What are we even talking about? What we’re talking about is I’m not being paid as a professional. I’m not a member of an association or a union. And I’m not saying to my parents that I’m foregoing everything else to do this thing, and I’m gonna make it. Right? And this system in Canada, for a period of time, was a pretty interesting system for certain people. It was also incredibly exclusive for a lot of other people. And so we’re at the crossroads of those exclusivities. And also the breakdown of a social fabric that was supporting an idea that, as Owais said earlier, you know, like, the Massey Commission, and the professionalization of the Canadian performance industry go hand in hand with the stabilizing of the geopolitical landscape that is no longer actually there. So we are at a place of new definitions. And that can be very exciting. Again, as Owais pointed out, it’s also going to be really destabilizing, and a lot of people that we value are going to continue, but an ever greater number to lose people they care about, and love. And ways of living that they cared about and loved. We’re in the process, I believe, anyway, a massive global change.
Marcel
You’re making me think of my cousin who lives in England. She has a three year old. She’s a lawyer. She doesn’t consider herself an artist. And yet whatever, she sends pictures of her son, with his cornrows. I’m like, God damn! I give up all my Doras, all the whatever, wherever I performed to be able to do that! I can’t do that! And so like, after our back and forth, she now sends me these pictures all the time, every time there’s a new doo that’s going on. And so yeah, I’m really resonating what you’re saying about this new definition this. I meet so many people who are artists, but don’t consider themselves artists. And I find that really fascinating.
SGS
So here’s a tricky, tricky thing. I think it connects to exactly what you said. And that whole progression from your cousin, not considering herself an artist and moving into that space. Because you honored it and loved it. We understand that there is no monetary gain for your cousin to exchange those pictures with you. It’s a heart game. It’s a space of joy. It’s a number of values that exist outside of capitalism, or any of the market spaces. One of the things that I think Owais and I wrestle with a lot, in my view, is this idea that everything wrong with being an artist today is the fault of capitalism, and neoliberalism. But I think that is a good critique, if we’re looking at why one person is getting a job and another person is not getting a job. But is capitalism, is our money markets really at fault for artists not being able to make art? And that’s a really big question for me. And it’s a tricky question. It’s not a comfortable question. There’s so many spaces to fall off big cliffs with it. But I think it’s a question worth asking.
Marcel
So I forgot to say this at the top. I wanted to play a guessing game with you both. If you’d like to play you’re welcome to, you don’t have to. So after reading your the essay about AI, I was inspired to go to AI. I went to Chat GPT. And I put it in a couple of the essays and asked it to pump out some questions, create questions for me. So I’ve mixed those questions amongst questions that I’ve created. And, and friends and colleagues and I have created. So if you hear a question, and you’re like, “oh, that’s an AI question.” You’re welcome to be like, “that’s an AI question.” And I’ll tell you if it is or if it isn’t. I may have said, one Who knows?
Owais
Just so you know, I’m doing the same thing on my side where my answers are also sometimes generated by an AI. And I encourage you to try and spot the difference.
Marcel
Yes, yes. And I bring that up, because one of the questions–I’m gonna out the AI here–one of the questions that came up with was that “the belief that capitalism and neoliberalism have locked everything into the hands of a few is discussed. How can this belief be challenged? And what alternative narratives can the art sector embrace?” Any thoughts?
SGS
Well then well done, Chat GPT, not so bad. I mean, are we really interested in digging into the question that Chat GPT has asked us? I mean, that’s, I’d say, a lot of what I’ve been thinking about, you know, is, what are the alternatives? One of the things that we, before we publish anything, one of our last kind of checks is, is this helpful? Does it offer something in some way, according to us. If it’s simply critique, then that’s actually not that useful? There’s a lot of great, you know, fantastically critical, like, make you feel-good-blood-boil kind of writing. That’s definitely not our intention. The provocation, I think, is to say, what if we were to think about this differently? So by bringing two of the most catalytic words that are used in the arts sector a lot to light fire–used to, I don’t think it does anymore–but capitalism, neoliberalism. Using those two phrases, and really thinking about like, okay, in what ways exactly is capitalism to blame? Is it to blame because since Clinton and with deregulation, that, through sort of the early move towards globalization, certain key dynamic supports for the Canadian economy have been ripped away from us? Therefore, capitalism is to blame for that and the forcefield of deregulation? Or can we look at and say, Well, if we want to live as a global society, as a global village, if we want to have more compassion and empathy for humanity across the glow, which is to take into account that there are certain, you know, masses of people who live far below the poverty level, so that we, the three of us can have this conversation here, then, how do we, you know, how do we bring all those together into a conversation about capitalism’s bad. And there’s many elements to the monetary system, and Owais has a much stronger capacity with the actual language around economics in these respects. But, you know, the World Economic meeting place is comprised of a number of different economic systems. And capitalism is, I think, just used by artists as a shorthand for 1%. As opposed to it being a system that is used, in some ways, with the same amount of structural shifting that’s happening in geopolitics. Like it’s not a fixed system, either, from my perspective. So I’m gonna stop now because I’m now completely out of my field. And I’m gonna pass it over to you.
Owais
As someone who is also not an economics professor, which I constantly need to remind my students because I like to go on very long economics tangents. My kind of
SGS
You have an MBA.
Owais
I have an MBA, that’s my claim to fame here. So that allows me some legitimacy, I guess. But like, the history of economics is also an entirely [inaudible] different understanding. I guess, for me the question and the core of the question is the confidence with which a lot of people in the art sector diagnose capitalism as the illness that plagues everything. Without offering much specificity of what symptoms they’re talking about. And where and how that intersects. The one thing that I like to say now–it’s become a bit of a habit and if it was up to me, it’d be a rule–is I try not to use the word or let anybody use the word in conversation without asking for a definition. Because I think we have so much slippery-ness happening in conversations where people will say ‘neoliberal’, they’ll say ‘capitalist’, they’ll say these things that we think we all understand what we mean by that. And everybody has a completely different definition, completely different assumptions set behind it. Completely different kind of casual understanding of what they specifically mean in this instance versus that instance. So I find it like, it’s basically for me a kind of laziness in discourse, where we think we are talking. We think we’re having a really deep discussion. But we’re not really actually saying anything, because nobody actually understands this shit, right? And this is true about the opposite, right? Another kind of favorite question I have is like, if anybody starts lecturing me about communism, I want to know if they have read the Communist Manifesto. And at least one other commentary on the Communist Manifesto. And if you haven’t, then at the very least, let’s just admit what we are starting from. Which is a pop culture, kind of casual understanding of these very large subjects that are also political economic systems, and the evolution and the amount of commentary on them. It’s just fascinating to me, the laziness we allow in our discourse. To have a conversation without ever even agreeing on definition. To the point of like, what alternatives can you imagine? I think one of the challenges for me, of why we are not able to imagine anything, is because we are starting with a very binary set of opinions about everything in the world. Everything. Like not just the capitalism piece, but you know, pick your favorite controversial topic of today. And I can point to a binary that’s playing out in public discourse, that is almost always not the case. That it is that binary. Or that it is that simple, black and white. Or that it is that reducible to ones and zeros. So the loss of complexity, the ability to hold complexity, the ability to hold contradiction simultaneously, the ability to admit that we don’t know what the fuck we’re talking about, and be honest about what what level of conversation we’re able to have at any given moment. Those are the things that are contributing to a kind of conversation that I have been in now enough times where I’m like, I see these conversations happen, they come to conclusions, the conclusions are this big evil system out there that I don’t understand or have any say in, and therefore I am off the hook for any kind of agency or responsibility to take on in my own life for what I could be doing. And that, to me is like, what I feel like is kind of low-key the purpose of blaming capitalism for your losses. I don’t feel like I have any power. And I don’t want to take any responsibility for what I can do. And I need to hold that simultaneously, because I am able to hold contradictions in simultaneously. That there is a system of power in the world. And we do not all have equal say in how the world is running. And absolutely, there are things happening to us that are massive systems that are acting upon us. But to reduce it to that binary of that that is the only thing that is at play. That we don’t have any individual agency and that we are not able to affect anything. That, to me feels like an assumption. At least is an assumption. And I would love to see the evidence of that assumption before I can subscribe to it.
Marcel
How did you two meet? When did you two meet?
Owais
This thing, we connected through NAC. Because we started talking when SGS became the Artistic Producer for the National Creation Fund, where I was already in relationship with them. We had been working towards building a national producer gathering, which has been a preoccupation of mine for a couple years, and the Creation Fund for around the same time. And then out of that conversation–because I had come into that with a research project of like, how do we train producers in this country? As a producer, myself, obviously, I came to the very non obvious conclusion that we needed more of me. So it was like, how do we train more producers? Because that’s what I do. And, that was an investigation that I was going in, down a research project. And I asked SGS if she wanted to get involved and she she graciously said yes. And then we started talking. And one of those conversations, as SGS does, asked some really good questions, and finally got to the actual core of what was propelling my investigation and my interests. And was able to point out or discover in that conversation that like, what was really concerning me–and I think SGS if I can speak for you, you shared this concern– is like, What does it mean to produce art today? And how, how are we thinking about that as a sector? And it feels like something about that needs examining. And it’s more than–where I was starting the research project was very much like, how do we train people who are producers to produce things better? Because that’ll help the sector? And there was a bit more of a philosophical question that preceded that, which is like, what does it mean to produce something? What does it mean to creatively produce something right now, in response to the challenges that we’re facing? And that requires, I believe, the first document we created was called a paradigm shift. And then we were like, Okay, what is the paradigm that we envision? And realized that we needed to do some, some thinking and writing because it’s very much emerging from our conversations. We’re still trying to figure out what that is.
SGS
Yeah. That’s true, in terms of where we actually really connected but um, we met I years ago, when Owais was with Why Not Theater? And I was part of the first ThisGen. Which is where there was a bit of connection, then I was also Jordan Tannehill and I are good friends. And Owais was in that [play], rihannaboi, and sort of that was on my radar. So, you and I didn’t actually connect over that, Owais, I just taught it actually, at some point. But actually, for me, where we really connected–and I take the compliment about me being a good questioner, only because one of the things that I value most about working with Owais, and he knows this because I say it all this time–I just think he asks incredible questions. And so it means a lot when I hear that back from you, but I’d say that’s sort of the train where we connect most over. But it was watching you ask a question followed up by a statement at the Canadian, uh,the business what’s it called the
Owais
Arts Summit? Canadian Arts Summit?
SGS
Yeah, I’m actually now on the advisory for that. That’s really funny. And I know that comes [inaudible] for now and Owais just want a big prize from them. But at this summit, which was in Banff, it was pretty good. Shannon Litzenberger done a lot of really good curation. Diane Ragsdale was there. She was, like, telling all the performance companies that they were actually behaving illegally, because they were not fulfilling the mandate of a not for profit sector, to the letter of what it’s intended to do, which is to respond to people, not to tell people what they need. And so there was a very good kind of like awakening happening. And there was a couple of other really great provocations. And I can’t, you know, I can’t remember what Owais stood up and said, and I’ve asked you a couple of times, but basically, he just kind of–what I do remember, which is absolutely true, is Owais just standing up and saying, like, basically, everything that’s being said right here is a kind of bullshit. And what’s real is that you need me. You need me, Owais Lightwala, you need people like me. And you’re pretending that you’re serving, you’re not serving me, you actually need me. And, so talk about paradigm shift within the room, there was a sense of like.. it was a great moment. It was a really, it was a great moment in Canadian theatre, and it did not happen on stage.
Owais
So I’ll tell a little bit of my side of that story too just mostly because I want to, I want to add the nuance of I wasn’t I wasn’t referring to me Owais Lightwala, as much as referring to people like me, because there was a conversation about equity, basically, from her. So Diane’s really great, really great keynote about a cultural institutions, and whether or not they were legal, if they were not serving, because the actual law, like charity law says ‘must be for public benefit.’ So who is the public that you’re serving? And if the public is not represented blah, blah, like it’s, it’s a great argument that she laid out and has forever changed my thinking about culture, and the purpose of cultural institutions. And I was listening to the follow up conversation that was happening and there was three white guys on stage, I forget who they were. And they were all talking about stuff. And then people were asking questions, and everybody was just so so self congratulatory about the initiatives that they had taken in their institution to help these poor people. And I was sitting in the very back of the room. I was there because the TAC Leaders Lab had somehow organized for us to be in that in that space, at the literally the back of the room are all these BIPOC young leaders from Toronto, in a roomful of like the biggest institutions in the country. And I’m just furious listening to these people talking about how they were saving us, saving our communities from our exclusion, our painful exclusion. And so I asked for a question. And they literally were like, Sir, we’re out of time. So I took the mic from the person who had the mic, and I’m like, I just gotta say, like, I don’t agree with this narrative of you saving people. They don’t give a fuck that you’re not including them in your institution. They are not at the loss. You are the ones who need them. And I want to reframe this from your savior narrative to one of like, this is an existential crisis for your institution that we will save you from, because otherwise, you’re a bunch of–and this is the part that was the most controversial, and I don’t know, maybe when I’m 60, I’ll regret saying it. But like–I see this as a room of dinosaurs facing extinction. And you’re looking for a way to be saved. That’s what I see. And that was the thing that people a) laughed about, some people were offended by. And also, I think it has become basically my entire jam now is like, using a little bit of provocative language and humor, to try and point to something that I think is happening is like the the conversation. But I, I find it really hard to listen to people who are very morally self righteous and preachy. So I try to make it a little bit more fun in the interaction, at least. But some of that I feel like is very much still my sentiment, and some of that I have more complexity on and more nuance around how I see that as someone who now is instead of being institutions all day long. And like trying to change them from within and trying to deal with the complexity of that, and also the challenge that communities bring, you know, when you’re actually trying to engage them like it’s, it’s a very complicated situation. That’s as everything is everything we’re talking about.
Marcel
Sounds like a good moment.
Owais
Yeah, you had to be there. Yeah.
Marcel
Hey, all I have is Kanye stealing on the mic from Taylor Swift. Like it’s not… I dont know, different time.
Owais
I don’t know if I should be… I feel like it makes me nervous to be compared to Kanye, if I’m being honest.
Marcel
In one of your essays, you make reference to an exchange between an engineer and an artist, I think in relation to the freedom convoy, and I picked a quote, you say, “You have all kinds of power to transform things. But as a brown body trying to make my way home from my office in downtown Ottawa, during the freedom convoy, I have to ask, where were the artists? You weren’t even part of the conversation? And certainly not part of any transformation? Where were you?” That struck me because, for many reasons, but I immediately like thought of the amount of artists I follow on the socials who are quite active on the socials. But I don’t get out in the streets. I don’t know how active their social activism relates to how they are in the streets. I’m curious, though, for the both of you. If you have any thoughts on, on the ways in which artists can address some of the social and political issues going on? What responsibilities maybe do we have? And like, who’s doing it already? You know, maybe share some names for us.
SGS
I mean, I think it’s done through skills. I don’t think it’s done through activism. That’s my own personal belief. And I think that the conflation that has occurred is that artists have started to show up as activists and I have no opinion about whether I think they’re good or not, except I have an opinion, which is I don’t think we are good because that’s not how we were trained. Like we’re trained to be, you know, if you’re a dancer, dance. If you’re a musician, make music. If you’re a poet, like share words. And that, you know, that was a quote from you know, a real exchange but the guy was just like, where like where were the artists? And he wasn’t saying like with placards, he was saying like with what you do, and I think that we have, you know, kind of corralled ourselves as a group of people who call themselves artists into like this thing of ‘No, we need to do more showing up to say, give more money to this person or defend this cause or whatever,’ as opposed to honing what is our our love, our gift, our joy, our whatever it is, the picture of your, you know, your nephew. Like offering some light or some movement. And I can’t remember if in the article, the essay if we if we wrote to that, but like, the response back from some artists was like, because I posted about or something was just like, you know, it’s too date like it’s too dangerous for me like, that’s not my thing. And I’m like, Where did we stop being people in what it is that we do? And yeah, you know like it was a real awakening for me when I had that conversation personally because I was like, You are right, like I felt it. I was just like, unions, labor relations, relations, insurance, like there’s so many things that try to get between us and what we are trained, what we’ve built our lives trying to learn how to do better. So yeah, we’re passionate about it, because it was such a like, explosion of like, Oh, my God, where are we? Yeah,
Owais
Yeah, the way I interpreted that exchange, for me is two things. One is, yes, absolutely. As I said before, I’m not sentimental about the idea of being an artist as a pure thing. In the way that I feel like sometimes it’s construed. I think, a lot of people right now would be happier if they just went and became activists, because they’re honestly, there’s a lot in the world to be mad about. And a lot of things to protest. And if that’s really what you want to do, absolutely go do that. Where I feel like there is some degree of dissonance for me, is people who want to be activist but want to call themselves artists and not make art, really. They want to actually just make activism. And I go, why not own that identity? Like what is stopping you from doing that in a way that would be great for the world? On the flip side, I also feel like there is a very much with what SGS is saying, there’s a kind of like, pressure that we are taking on upon ourselves. To like, our all of our art must be activism in some way to justify its utility. And I think what that actually speaks to, what I internalize from that commentary is like, do we have a relevance in our society? And do we have a crucial, vital role, and an analogy for this week, we toyed with putting this in one of the essays, and I’ll throw it out here to see how it lands, is when we got declared inessential and shut down during the pandemic, like that was a kind of an indictment of the value of what it is that culture does, right? When, you know, it wasn’t the intention by any means by any of the government kind of mandates to rule that this was not important. But, there’s something there, I think, that we need to grapple with, which is I actually do wonder what the actual impact is of the arts on the shape of our world. And by the arts, I mean, the nonprofit arts complex. Right, this is where I’m like, the difference between being a professional artists working in nonprofit arts, getting government funding is not the same thing as the artistic sensibility, or the creative mind, or the creation of human expression, which absolutely can and does exist outside of the purview of the state. So we have this like, I think, relevance problem in nonprofit cultural institutions and this engagement problem where I don’t know if the entire cultural sector went on strike, and said no more culture. Like I don’t know if the country would be like up in arms in the way that they would be up in arms if every library went on strike. They would be up in arms, if all of healthcare went on strike. They would be up in arms if all public schools went on strike. Like there is something there for me around our social relationship to our communities that needs to be re examined. And it hasn’t been really. Not systematically, not at a DNA level since Massey. Not since that, like formation of our–you know, what is culture? A culture is that you have a ballet, a symphony, an orchestra, an opera, a big theater that does Shakespeare or Shakespeare ish things, and then maybe some grants for some people to do some smaller stuff while they work their way up into those pinnacle of human achievements, right? Like, that’s basically what the Massey commission kind of concluded. Like I’m still reflecting what you said, SGS,at the beginning, which is like,the settling of the borders and feeling like we were done. And the disruption there is very much what is happening with the Massey commission. There’s this kind of sense in, I think in the Canadian culture that I have that like these institutions are set up to be the final destinations. These are set up to be like, this is it. We’ve arrived. What more can you do than Shakespeare? There’s nothing left to write. There’s nothing left to do beyond opera, it’s perfected. Now, we just need to nurture it and recreate it and hold on to it. And I think that to me is an underlying assumption in the way that these institutions were built, and the way that their programs are constructed, and then the way the funding was built around them, which is a thing I often complain about is like operating funding is for conservation, not innovation. It’s there to preserve what we already have. It does not incentivize you to change anything or to build anything differently, or new. In fact, that will rescue losing your funding, which is a great approach for the Greenbelt. It’s a great approach for the swamp land. It’s a great approach for the freshwater, is conservation. But I don’t know that that’s what we need right now for culture.
SGS
You know, I’ve had this on my my X handle, my Twitter handle for quite a while, which is “culture is what we believe in creativity is what we used to communicate it”. And I keep thinking I should change it, I should update it. I’m also always disappointed that no one else thinks its as cool as I do. But I think it’s really, really cool. And it’s something I think about a lot. And when I think about other nations, even as the concept and constructs around nation states are falling apart, to my mind, like the essential flaw within what we’ll call Canada’s national identity or imaginary or whatever, is the complete disavowal of this unbelievably rich and thrilling kind of Indigenous innovation space. And so again, like, it’s this is not like, Oh, I’m a white person. So like, Reclaiming my ties to the importance of reconciliation, I have always–well I shouldn’t say I’ve always–but when I understood, I’ve been unbelievably like, angered by the waste of hundreds of years of cultural development that could be so unbelievably important so that if culture workers, let’s call them that for now, did go on strike people be like, No! You know? And I think, again, that kind of ties back to the Massey, like the global movement, post-World War Two was to flatten the histories. I would say cultural imperialism, to my to my mind, is much easier to describe, and much more of a clear problem than how I would understand capitalism, because cultural imperialism suggests that there’s one–you know, colonialism, I’ve always said, is the best story ever told. Like, everyone was like, Yeah, that’s the story, man. That’s how it works. That’s the story. And then to be like, Oh, my God, there’s another story? So yeah, I mean, I think I’m really struck by your your feelings Owais on that, and I so don’t want it to be true. And I absolutely believe that it is. But I do think it is tied to a really–just an unintelligent disregard for the greatest wealth of storytelling history that this land has to offer all of us. And if anyone for any moment thinks that means looking back, I don’t. It’s an innovative space, it’s alive with possibility. It’s crossed all the borders, because, you know, the First Peoples and those particular ways of knowing in different structures continue and have had all these years to continue. You know, they ‘fell’ in terms of empire language in the same way that Rome and Greece and Timbuktu fell. But they’re still–the reason to reclaim them, in the same way that we, you know, show Oedipus every two years, is because there’s really good, you know, classic, historic grounding. And this country that we call Canada would have a far better, more exciting cultural scene if we could just get out of our own way on that one. Like, truly I believe that.
Owais
If you want more evidence of this, our federal ministry that is responsible ultimately for arts and culture in this country is called the Ministry of Canadian Heritage. Heritage is the name of cereal that I buy that is ancient grains, literally, it’s called heritage ancient grains. It makes me feel like it’s rooted in some rich tradition. And it’s safe because it’s been tried and tested. I find it fascinating that that’s the name for the institution responsible for arts and culture in this country. Heritage. Whose heritage? Why rearview mirror? Why not the windshield in front of us?
SGS
Yeah, and we’ve talked about this too, because culture is also like, its growth. Its yogurt. It’s actually–we forget that like, it’s actually this, you know, space of bubble and stability and you don’t exactly know what’s going to happen in a petri dish. Yeah. I was at this talk last week in Calgary, Open Learning Labs, it was very cool. And there was a number of arts leaders there. One from the film industry, one from gaming. Patti Pon, from Canadian Calgary Arts Development Office. Alex Sarian, from Arts Commons, and a woman representing Daughter, which is an arts marketing spot. And the guy who was speaking [inauudible], and I don’t, I don’t know his last name, I don’t know the name of the company, because I’m not I should be more into gaming. I couldn’t even answer the question that you guys asked before. Like, what’s your favorite games? I’m like, I don’t even play. But this guy was just like, it was a bit of an Owais moment. It was kind of like dropped some thing because of the last question was like, quick question. Because it’s an open learning labs for students working with professionals, like, what would you say to your 18 year old self, you know, and he said, I would say, like, forget passion, make as much money as you can? And then [inaudible], right. And a woman behind me students, she was like, Excuse me, sorry, did you say forget passion? And he was like, Yes, I did. And somebody else came in and sort of disagreed. He goes, Yeah, you may disagree. But from my perspective, passion comes when you have the privilege to have it. So you need to do the work to get privilege to have it if you don’t have the privilege already to be in the position to have it. And it was such a good to be like, we got all these bland words, like ‘follow your passion,’ or tropes or whatever. And it’s like, again, like, the legality of cultural institutions, who are we talking to? Like, what’s the context within which we’re saying these things? And, and who, like, are we saying it to our, you know, potential privileged self as a young person? Or are we actually saying it to people who have something unfathomable to us to offer? If we could, again, just get out of the way? And, I want to say when I say get out of the way, I don’t mean don’t support. I don’t mean don’t put resources towards that. I don’t mean–I just mean like, get out of the way in terms of like letting innovation happen. And this country, it’s not in performing arts alone. It’s across the board. We hate innovation. As Owais pointed out and this conference I was at last weekend, like, the two biggest names in AI are Canadian. The least supportive place on the planet for any new technologies is Canada. We’ve seen this in so many different places but right now? I mean, you know,the BlackBerry story is actually a terrifically good story, like, a brilliant ‘could have’. But Canada was like, no, they’ll figure it out. Those boys are, you know, like, anyway,
Owais
On that note, and especially when it comes to technology, one thing that I think to add–I think maybe this is going to be the theme for today is like, ‘Yes And’ complexity answers–which is that innovation and conservation, there are trade offs in these things. Like I don’t want to sound like, and I think I have to be more and more careful of this because I have been relatively so much more interested in AI and the possibilities that it offers compared to a lot of my peers, that it sounds like I am a kind of, you know, completely blind believer in a religion or something. And I want to keep the balance here. There is a trade-off to be made between whether you’re leaning towards innovation or towards conservation. One of the things about Canada’s resistance to a lot of innovation and that culture that we have in this country compared to especially the United States, of not being as entrepreneurial, not being as quick to jump to things, is it’s less volatile. So we have a much more stable–like the great the great kind of tests of this was 2008 financial crisis, housing crisis. In effect, Canada’s hard on our banks, super conservative, much tighter regulation, much harder to do things. And I was talking to a friend of mine who works in investment recently. And, you know, he was kind of bemoaning how Canada has a very conservative culture of investment. I was like, it’s interesting you say that, because I would say the same thing about our culture that like, exciting culture is much more, you know, happening in other places, and Canada’s much more conservative, and we always wait to see what other people are doing. And then we come late to the party, and we always need permission, like, was it done in New York? If it was done in New York, we can do that. But but unless it’s been done somewhere… But in the context of like, you know, the banking innovation, I don’t know that, like, we shouldn’t be like, all gas on, like, ‘let’s deregulate the financial sector and take massive risks with people’s money and sometimes people are gonna get really wealthy, and sometimes they’re gonna lose their jobs and go broke.’ Like, there is a trade off. Risk comes with more gain, but also with more loss, potentially. And what what I think we’re missing is like, the balance or the strategic use of those energies in different spaces. And generally as a culture that is going to be our weakness is that we’re more conservative as a country. As a rich country, at least compared to some of our peers. And those are the limitations we’re speaking, for and there are some strengths so that. Like, yes, you know, it’s been a relatively stable country to live in for a long time for most people, so you’ve got that benefit. But in the culture sector and the things that we’re doing, is it possible for us to challenge that? Is it possible for us to have space for more than one way of seeing and doing?
SGS
I rarely do this with you, Owais, but that is disagree. And I do. And I disagree on a point of process rather than perspective maybe rather than content. I’m hearing you speak, and it’s like, yeah, I want everybody to know that I have a wider understanding, or that I’m an optimist who will be disappointed, rather than a pessimist who’s going to be doubly disappointed. But what I’m pushing back against is–and I don’t know if this is Canadian, or this is just the cultural sector within this countr– that there’s maybe a concern about trusting that somebody else holding the opposing position will balance me. I guess there’s checks and balances that I guess I believe in a collaborative model. Which is to say, lean in with your opinion, and trust that someone will be there, if you’re doing open heartedly, and with curiosity, etc, etc. But I think that one of the things–and it’s a criticism, because I see it in myself–is trying to, like hold both constantly, both sides of everything so that everyone knows that, ‘it’s cool.’ Like, I’m not an idiot, you know, like… and I just wonder… Well, like, again, in a conversation I was at recently, a guy who’s a really strong defender of AI, and he’s very highly placed. And he knows both of the two lead Canadian folks in AI. And he vehemently disagrees with both of them signing the Declaration. He’s very, very pro AI. And a guy got up to challenge him. And the guy said, you know–and basically, he was saying something that I tend towards believing, which is, it might be better. And we’re very, very quick to assume it’s going to be worse. With all change making, all change metrics, it’s always like, ‘it’s going to be worse. So how do we mitigate? How do we make sure you know, how do we protect, how do we…’ And essentially, he was saying it might be better. And a guy got up, who’d been around the block for a lot longer than this other guy and said, you know, listen, if that had been the case, because he used the argument that you look at nuclear energy now, and it’s one of the safest, most productive energies that we can have. And we know that we’ve gone through a huge revolution about how terrible nuclear power of any kind is and what a horrible innovation it was. And this guy stood up and he said, you know what? If Canada had moved on the initial reactors, we would have blown ourselves up. Like we would have blown ourselves up. So you can say that it might be better, but if we had moved on that one, it’s pretty clear scientifically, that it probably would not have been better. So the guy who’s holding the opinion as a champion of AI heard that, takes that. The guy who holds his opinion about the horror show that AI is likely going to be from his perspective, you know, takes the AI’s positive. And that, to me is real dialogue. And I don’t think we do that enough. I think we’re trying to be like, all the same when we’re talking? Which is really… anyway…
Marcel
You mentioned trust. And I’m curious how… I think you also mentioned trust in an essay. Lacking trust, I think, like society’s lack of trust. Thoughts on how to build trust? There’s a lot of trauma and harm, and, you know, like, how does the art sector build trust? With maybe institutions, government, charity. Any thoughts on restoring trust? Or how to build trust? I really resonate with what you’re talking about in terms of just leaning in, but like, how do you trust that you’ll be supported? How do you trust? You know, how does one? How does an institution or organization? Any thoughts on that?
Owais
The big question. And I think a lot of institutions are asking that question more than ever. I think the trust crisis is pan-society, pan-sector. Like, it’s a universal dilemma that we have a decline happening in our trust levels, especially in institutions. And, kind of the older the institution, the more rapidly it feels like the decline in trust.
SGS
I’m going to go into a weird place here. Maybe I’ve already been in many in association, I don’t know. But somebody I really admire a lot who…Anyway, somebody I really admire a lot. In the conversation, one day, dropped that they were an addict, and we’re active in 12 Step or whatever. And I was like, Oh. You have a framework for how to build trust with people. And something that, you know, we’ve talked about a lot is the different cultural and religious frameworks that sit outside of, well the mainstream and then also, like, the strengthening of the evangelical Christians, but that’s just a small–that just gets a lot of headlines. I mean, there’s you know, a massive population of devout Muslims, massive population of devout Hindus. And I think that part of what helps build trust is having a framework that you can rely upon when people are invariably shitty beyond all measure. And, you know, I think my generation–which is not your generation, I’m significantly older than both of you–was part of a generation that really just blew so many things up. Possibly for good reason, because I wasn’t quite around when all that began to happen. But leaving very little to feel certain or secure about. And it probably sounds very small-C conservative when I when I say this, but whether it’s–I’m not espousing one kind of religious affiliation over another, but more the necessity of a shared community-based practice, that others that you value also share so that you have a way to know how you’re doing. The cultivated individualism I think really set us all loose into a kind of ego maniacal kind of identity space. It’s made it really, really difficult for subsequent generations to kind of rebalance. I had no idea I was going to talk about any of that, so I think…
Owais
I think the way to build trust is quite simple. It’s basically make a promise and then do what you say. And if you do that consistently, then I can count on when you say you’re gonna do a thing, you’re gonna do a thing. That’s basically all that trust is in an individual relationship. It’s what trust is between us in a larger whole. I feel like some of the loss of trust culturally is like institutions that have broken promises to us over and over again. That is one piece. And then the other piece is also I feel like the promises are getting weaker. There’s a transactionality I find with most culture now, where the promise is not very exciting. The promise itself is not particularly inviting, especially not to someone who’s not engaged. Like a thing that I’ve been thinking a lot about when it comes to like inviting people that I say is like, I don’t know, any church or masjid, that turns people away because they can’t afford to go. Like, it’s not a thing. And I know lots of theaters that will turn you away if you can’t afford it. There’ll be all kinds of values that they will espouse, and all kinds of Rush programs and ways for you to get a cheaper ticket to stand in the back and all that. But like, there’s a generosity in the offer there that I am missing, to really understand it as a public space. As a space for everyone. Which is like language that we’d love using in culture is it’s for everybody. But we don’t really mean that if we’re going to be super hyper-transactional in our relationship with everyone. And I recognize the constraints of that, having run a company. :ike there’s real constraints that are causing that. But like, you know, there’s lots of spaces that are operating in a logic that doesn’t make any sense from the kind of math of a capitalist. So this is where capitalist logic is appropriate to use, a market-based logic purely based on like, transaction, what is the value you’re getting? What is the price of that value? Let’s have an economic exchange in this moment. And now we’re done. That makes a lot of sense to me for pizza. And I don’t know that it makes necessarily sense for. Can we go back to this space of being sacred? Can we go back to the space of our value not being utility? Not being something that can be reduced to a quantifiable economic transaction? Because the truth is we lose on that. Frankly, the utility of nonprofit, culturals, the things that the people on this call make. I have a cheaper alternative and Netflix for entertainment. If that’s the only utility that artists offer is entertainment, there’s cheaper entertainment. But if we have something that is not utilitarian to offer, that is not just–I’ve drifted away from your question about trust, into value. But yeah, I think it has.
SGS
I just wanted to jump in on that. Because, for me, it’s one degree further. It’s not as simple as making a promise and keeping it, because nobody ever has been able to do that, in my view. No human being has been able to keep every promise they’ve made. That’s part of our condition, that’s part of the the the guilt we feel about being not as good as we wish to be. We can, you know, attribute it to any kind of belief system. But I think it’s having something in place to be able to deal with the promises that were made, not happening. Be it a space of compassion, be it a space of empathy, or be it a space of, you know, uprising. But that it’s there to respond to the fact that we won’t meet all the promises that we make. And I agree with you that promises though, particular cultural spaces, have gotten weaker and weaker. And I think rather than acknowledging that it’s because cultural institutions have not been able to keep any of the promises they’ve made. They’ve tried to weaken the promises so that they can not have to kind of like respond. There’s kind of a, I think, a held breath in many institutions. Not just about their survival from a [inaudible] perspective, but their survival from a social media perspective, their survival from any number of kind of fronts. There is definitely an antagonistic, warring kind of mentality. I think that’s existing everywhere right now and cultural institutions, absolutely. I don’t think it’s bad that they’re feeling that way. But I do think we’re all going to need to find some different ways through this moment if we want to ensure that some among us, some of the best quarterbacks of the artistic scene, can continue to reach for the stars. So that the rest of us can glory in that achievement. And that in my view is is a big part of what’s missing.
Owais
I’m going to do something Marcel, you get to see this real time. This happens to me all the time in conversations with SGS, where I’m going to one-eighty, because there’s something that you said that’s making me go, actually, maybe what I’m craving is make a bolder promise than the ones that we’re making. Even if you’re not sure if you can deliver, and trust yourself to deliver that promise. So I think that’s actually how we build new trust. Like, we have actually been trying to line-up our promises closer and closer to what we think we can deliver. But it’s become a kind of spiral downwards into smaller and smaller thinking and dreaming, and the capacity for taking the risk into, ‘we don’t know if we can do this, but we want to try.’ I think that is a different type of appetite. And it requires you to trust yourself first, before you invite someone to trust you.
SGS
Yeah, I love that. And I think that’s a kind of a great segue to Manifesto for Now. Because, you know, what gives us the balls, you know, to do this? Yeah, balls, ovaries, whatever. I’m down ovaries from, you know, surgery years ago. So like, you know, I don’t have any of it actually. That’s so funny, but other than believing, trusting ourselves that we might have something to offer. And, it’s not comfortable. And, yeah, I think I spent a lot of time really questioning, like, really what gives me the right to do this? And the only answer is that I’m trying. You know, we’re just trying to do something, you know. And the story I was going to open with was, I was in a conversation this morning. And I was speaking to somebody about my research creation on the Massey commission, and they’ve listened to all the four–it’s basically four podcasts and a film [that] make up the research creation. So it’s over five parts, and it kind of loosely mimics the structure of the Massey lectures, save for the last one was a film. And she said, you know, you really should do, you know, a series of Massey lectures. And I said, well, funny you should say that. But Owais, and I–somebody suggested that maybe we could do Massey lectures on Manifesto for Now. And the person said, ‘oh, yeah, well.’ And I said, we didn’t, and we didn’t hear anything back. That’s not gonna happen or something. And the person said, ‘oh, yeah, well.’ And I was like, ‘What do you mean? Oh, yeah, well?’ ‘Oh, well, that would be far too scary for CBC.’ And I was like, Huh. Like, Huh. So just to even hear that response was such a shock to me. Because I have to say that even though I question what is, you know, my right to speak all those things, I think all of us as artists or thinkers, cultural thinkers do. Yeah, it’s just, I’m still shocked. I’m still shocked, actually, by that response.
Owais
We need a whole podcast. That story.
SGS
I know. And yeah, and I know, we’re almost out of time, but like we are conversations about a possible book. And now it makes sense, Owais, when I think about some of the response that we’ve had to some of the thiking. It’s around like–we’re shaking at trees that I think because we’re so interested and want so much to be a productive, generative part of making things better and even more accessible, more exciting, that we’re missing perhaps some of the branches or something that other people are seeing falling.
Owais
I think our sector, our world maybe, wants like magical gardening to happen without doing any pruning. Like, don’t touch any branches. Don’t take a single leaf shouldn’t fall from this tree, but also magically somehow make it all different. That’s the capacity I think we’re we’re most in need of, is like, how can we be okay with the tree shaking a little? It was, quote I love from a long time ago. It’s that its the tree that doesn’t bend in the wind that snaps first. And I think about that a lot as the metaphor for what is our resilience in the face of change? And are we trying to create more bendability in our tree? Or are we trying to make it more brittle? Because they will have different outcomes? I think when it’s very windy out.
Marcel
My last question, although I could keep going, I really could. One of my mentors, Ahdri Zhina Mandiela, early in my career once told me–we talked about calling, the calling as an art maker as an artist as a thinker–And she didn’t really have words for it. And she said, like, you’re just called to it. She couldn’t quite–she just kept saying, like, there’s no real definition for the calling. You’re just called, you know what I mean? And when the wind blows, you feel it. And you move. And oftentimes there’s a–you talked about this–like intellectualizing of what we often do, and she was like, I just feel it. It’s a feeling, you know? And so I was struck by the reference of calling in one of the essays. And I have so many questions, but I feel like the way to end this is, you know, what is your calling? You multi hyphenate thinker-doer? What is your calling? And have you answered it? Are you answering it? End of thought.
SGS
I mean, I’ll just say that Ahdri, lives that truth. You know, like, you know, oh, she just directed a hit mainstream. How’s that possible? You know, it’s like, What do you mean how’s that possi– Like, you know, what I mean? Like, when I think about the complexity of what it is to live the life of an artist, Ahdri is a great example of how you know, it’s inexplicable, it is. Like, it shouldn’t be, you know, what do you do? You know, it’s like, I do a ton of things. And maybe that’s my way of thinking allowed to get to– I’m intensely interested in our becoming. And I feel that humanity is in a constant project of becoming. And anything that I can do to, my hope anyway, positively contribute to the possibility of our becoming. And that’s all of us. I’ll be there for. Like, that’s what draws me. That’s what pulls me in. That’s what pulls me into a conversation. That’s what pulls me into a new interest. You know, SpiderWebShow like, that was like, what do we do when we can’t tell that the holograph isn’t a human? Like, what are we going to do? Who will we be then? How will we be human then? Who are we now? And who will we become? And the arts and working within the world of art making is, for me, anyway, the best playground to try to help and figure that stuff out.
Owais
I think the simplest way I can answer that, for me right now, I think is at my core, my calling is I like to build new things. And I have a, I feel like a relatively high capacity for risk and uncertainty and failure. And while I do get very sad when things don’t go my way, I recover very quickly from from those. And it’s very easy to get me excited. It doesn’t take much. And I get very, very excited then. And then with that energy, I feel like I’m able to throw myself throw myself at things that by the time I’m done those things what I have learned about how hard they are to do. I would not do them again. But they’re irrationally, they’re irrational to sometimes go after. But, because I have that naivete, and kind of delusional optimism, it has given me the ability to build things that generally the average sane, rational person would be like, that’s not worth it. Or it’s not a good idea, or it’s got too many problems. So I’m trying to lean into that everywhere I can. Like anywhere where i see like a frustrating problem, or a stagnation, and there’s need for new? That’s a place where I feel like I’m called. I’m happiest there because there’s something to be done.
SGS
I’m so often envious of your answers. I can’t even–it’s like I feel like I turned green. I’m like, Oh, I wish I Ah! Just because we’re like in this you know trying to like multi multi space? What how would you answer that question, Marcel.
Marcel
I think that my calling is connected to where I came from. And seeking to be in relationship with that, in this country where I feel like I’m a visitor, and I don’t, I don’t necessarily feel connected as like home. And I don’t really know where home is either. So when I say where I come from, my folks come from Jamaica, but they left during the Windrush generation. Early 60s, late 50s. And so, my folks aren’t necessarily connected to that land in terms of family anymore, either. But there feels like a–you know, I talked to friends about going home to the motherland and like, touching the soil and, I think for me, there’s like a sense of like, belonging? Where is my home? Where is my place? I grew up in England, and I grew up in a place that was Bristol, UK. A community of Jamaican immigrants. And for longest time, I thought that was the Blackest place on the planet, because of everyone around me was that. Like, it was such a vibrant culture and then returning there, as an adult, I realized it was a small sect within this huge city that was not that. I didn’t, you know–I thought like the Bristol Old Vic was like, like a place where, yeah, anyways… it was a really interesting awakening for me growing up. But I am here now grappling with the history of this country that we call Canada, the stories that we want to tell. And I’m constantly being drawn back to some of the earlier traditions of oral storytelling, and non traditional forms of performance. And like, accessible spaces. So like, not forcing folks to sit out, like, where can it be? So I just, I’m thinking about my ancestors. How they told stories, how they gathered community, and like, how can I bring that with me daily? In the spaces I’m in? In the thoughts that I have? In the work that I create? And especially in the children that I’m bringing up? Who are biracial children, and, you know, have Jewish lineage, Caribbean lineage. How do I imbue them with some of that ancestry? In ways that like, aren’t apologetic? I’m constantly trying to grapple with like, Am I too much? How can I be more? So so that. My calling is how do I grapple with where I’ve come from, to be more present more fulsome in who I am? If that’s even a calling? There we are.
SGS
Yeah, I mean, it’s such a great–I mean, it’s such a great question, because it’s, there’s, like so many things. There’s so many different answers that could be. But it’s a great way to get to know all of us a little bit better. Actually, I really, it’s,
Owais
I think it’s what I’m going to ask next time I meet someone instead of what do you do? What’s your calling is such a good question. Thank you for that.
Marcel
Maybe that was an AI question. Kidding! Kidding! Kidding!
Owais
I don’t think I could have–none of those felt AI to me. I mean, there’s also the way you delivered them was very human, in that they weren’t slickly packaged, they felt very coming-from-you. So I have no idea what of that was actually AI. Which to me, is why everything I’m saying about how AI is gonna change the world is right. Because it’s good. If there was some AI in there, we will not be able to tell the difference. Not for long. So good. This has been lovely. Marcel, thank you so much for the invitation in the space and yeah, you’re a great listener.
SGS
Thank you so much. Yeah, what a great opportunity. Thanks a lot.
